Pastor Bradly Lawson from Two Trees Church | The Conversation Ep. 56

On this episode, I sit down with Pastor Bradley Lawson, co-founder and lead pastor of Two Trees Church in Ventura, California. We hear the incredible story of how Pastor Brad went from being a militant atheist to planting a church after a life-changing encounter with God. We also dive into what it truly takes to plant a church, and explore a vital, timely topic: church hurt, and what to do when you are wronged by leaders or people you trusted to be men and women of God. This episode is a powerful reminder that our past does not get the final say in what God wants to do with our future. Don’t miss a single second of this impactful conversation!

Hosted by Roxanne Grace, The Conversation is an interview show discussing music, faith and issues of the day with influencers, artists, entertainers and more. 
 
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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

What's up? I'm Roxanne Grace, the host of the conversation. Today I am chatting with co-founder and lead pastor of Two Trees Church in Ventura. You don't want to miss it, so sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation. On today's episode, we find out what could happen when an atheist encounters God in a dream. Today's guest left his old life behind and ends up planting a church. I'm sitting down with Pastor Bradley Lawson from Two Trees Church. We're going to talk about the raw and filtered truth of ministry in planting a church. And we're reminded why our past in childhood does not get the final say in what God can do with our future. We're also diving into a tough but vital topic today. Church hurt. If you've ever been broken or rejected by someone acting in the name of the Lord, we pray that the Lord uses this episode to help bring healing to your heart. Let's jump in. It's so good to have you on the podcast. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

I'm doing amazing. It's bright and early, and I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

You know, you asked me last evening if I am a morning person. The answer is no. But you know, a lot of things happen in the morning. So God is good, and this is gonna be a lot of fun. We always begin the podcast with a series of personality type questions. Don't think too much about them, just respond to whatever comes to your mind first. I'm gonna ask you four questions. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Ready, go.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

All right, let's go. What's your favorite pizza topping?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Cheese.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Oh, oh, okay. That's a good that's a good response. Love it. All right. If you could master a new skill right now, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Jiu-jitsu.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

All right. Which fictional TV or movie character do you think you're most like?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

That's a tough one because I don't want to be a main character, even though I'd probably think about a main character. Um it has to be fictional.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

No, I mean, hey, if you can think of someone that's non-fictional, sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Okay. Um maybe since it's World Cup season, I'd like to be Erling Holland. He's the Norway guy with the big, he's really tall, long blonde hair, great shape, uh, Viking physique. He looks he looks like he's just straight from the Middle Ages, planted in the World Cup. And uh yeah, I want um I want my 44-year-old body back in a 25-year-old's body, and I want to be able to do something very very good athletically.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

That is awesome. Okay, next question. Pastor Brad, I know that you hear the voice of the Lord often in so many different ways, but if you could hear the audible voice of God today, what would you ask him?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Oh man, because I mean, really, like my heart's desire would be to to have more of him and to be with him and a more um to see him manifest more in my life. And so I think uh my question would be like I mean, or maybe this, maybe when do I get to see you face to face? When do I get to see you face to face is the question because maybe because I do experience a measure of his presence now, but really what I'm looking for is the unveiled face, and I want to see him uh as he is, and I want to be transformed into his image. So I'd say, when do I get to see you face to face? It's my question.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Thank you for that. We're gonna switch gears. I think we all feel like we know you a little bit more. Great answers. Let's talk about two trees. So you are co-founder and lead pastor at a an amazing church in Ventura, California. First of all, can you tell us a little bit about two trees?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, well, um eight years ago, we uh, me and a small group of people, friends and uh a small prayer team, we uh stepped out in faith and just basically got on legal zoom and said, How do you start a church? And uh we began to piece together bylaws and all the things that I didn't know anything about as a youth pastor at the time. Um and we stepped out in faith with the wind of the spirit and the the Rhema word of God speaking over our future, and we stepped out in a city where we knew very little people and just basically uh hit the gas about eight years ago, August. Ten years ago, I was on Main Street of Ventura in Ventura, and I heard the Holy Spirit, it was about 5 a.m. I heard the Holy Spirit tell me as I walked out of Starbucks. I was with a group of pastors, and we weren't here. Uh I had actually no desire to be on the coast and had no desire to really plant a church. I was a youth pastor and I was doing a lot of college campus ministry and outreach ministry on youth campuses and evangelism events and stuff. And then uh I walked out of Starbucks on Main Street, Ventura, and the Holy Spirit said, start a church here. And I stopped. It was 5 a.m. It was like a ghost town, it was super early in the morning on Main Street. And I said, if that's you, confirm that and I'll give it my whole heart. And the next morning, I didn't tell a soul. The next morning I didn't tell my wife, I didn't tell our team that we were with, I didn't tell any friends. I just kept it to myself and I said, Okay, Lord, it wasn't audible, but it was unmistakable and it was, it was, it was powerful. You know, so I knew something had happened, but I didn't, but I needed it confirmed. You know, the Bible says, like 2 Corinthians 13, it says, let every word be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses. And I knew that like sometimes, you know, God'll speak, but it's very important to get his worst, his word confirmed in your life. And I uh next morning I woke up and my senior pastor of the church I was at, he called me and he said, Brad, he goes, Hey, do you have a few minutes? I said, Yeah. And he said, Yes, I said, Yes, sir. I didn't say yeah. I said, Yes, sir. And he said, uh, I was in prayer this morning and I saw a vivid picture of you and your wife living in Ventura. Have you ever thought about that? I said, Yeah, actually, let me tell you the story. And I told him the story. He said, Wow. He goes, Well, uh, sounds like God's moving. Uh, how long until you can get over there? I said, I'll I'll go look for a place tomorrow, but let me go talk to let me talk to Shanna first. So I walk into our house. I said, Hey, do you want to what do you think about moving to Ventura to start a church? And Shanna goes, What are we gonna do with our home? We owned a small house and um in a different city. And I said, Well, the Bible says that if we give it up for the sake of the gospel, that God will give us give it back. And we uh she said, Okay. And together we stepped out in faith. And the rest is history. There was, I mean, obviously, there's many more confirmations and many more um encounters that happened over the course of the next three weeks, three months, you know, as we moved out. But we officially moved within probably a month and stepped out, and I thought revival was coming. You know, I had worked for this big church, and for me, ministry had been effortless for so long. And then I landed in Southern California and nothing worked. Everything fell apart, and I ended up losing my job, losing my pastor, losing my friends, losing all the momentum we had. And I found myself working at a thrift store in Oxnard, California, for the Ventura County Rescue Mission. And I was completely disappointed and deconstructed and didn't, I mean, I knew I had heard the voice of God, but it just nothing had worked out. I thought I was walking into revival, but I walked into a baptism. Like anybody who says they want to plant a church, not willing to die. Like planting is dying biblically. Like there's a seed that's sown into the ground, and that seed must die in order to bear fruit. You're crucified to a people, and I think that's that's I'm not just like moving around churches trying to get the next gig, trying to move up in a denomination. We're an independent church, so like we're we're led by Jesus, but um we're crucified to a city, like you come in with a mindset like bury me here.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

You know, it it is obvious that God is at two trees, so definitely God had a plan here. You know, you mentioned that you were a youth pastor. How long have you been a pastor? And is it something that you wanted to do when you were young? I mean, is it something you desired to do growing up?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Not at all. Yeah, thank you for asking that. Uh I was actually um I was raised by wolves. I was not, I was not raised in the church. I didn't have believing parents. Both my parents were um, you know, they were they were drug addicts. And my dad was in prison most of my life. And about my junior year in high school, they both went to jail and I went to live with my grandparents. And at that time, I had actually fallen in love with music as an outlet, and I began to play music. And so um, my first love, I always uh, you know, at least in my mind, like I married music before I married my wife, Shanna. When I met Shanna, I divorced music, you know. So like I uh I was I was a musician and um at 23, I was working in a retail store and a guy I had barely met, it was in the mall in the city I lived in. A guy I'd barely met, I mean, I had known him maybe a week and a half, two weeks. He walked in one day and I could tell I didn't, I hadn't been around many Christian people, and the ones I had been around, I didn't want anything to do with. I uh I felt like Christians were afraid to die, and they just cussed in different ways than I did. But it was like Christian ease was so weird to me, and the whole thing was so odd to me. And uh I felt like in reality, like it wasn't real. It wasn't real. And most people I knew that were Christians, I didn't want, why would I drop my sin to have their life? There was just no point in it. So um, this guy came and he uh came to work and he I was at the caste register and he said he came in and he was just filled with joy and he he really didn't have much. He's kind of uh he would ride the bus to work and stuff, but he came in and uh his name was Alex. He came in and he didn't have very much in common with me, but he walked in and he walked with God and he he said, Hey, good morning. I said, What's going on? He said, uh I was uh I was praying for you this morning and God talked to me about you. Do you want to know what he said? I said, Oh, you're praying for me. I go, Really? What's that do? He goes, Well, God told me he's gonna make you a pastor. And I buffed up laughing. Like he said, God told me he's gonna make you a pastor. And I go, Well, he's got a lot of work to do because I don't believe in him. Well, he told me he's gonna make you a pastor and he's gonna give you influence. And uh I it was the farthest thing from my mind. I couldn't, I mean, I had zero desire. There was zero desire for God. In fact, I was angry with God if he exists. My my uh faith system was this either God wasn't real, which was most likely it. I was just atheists, I was a militant atheist. He was probably not real, but if he was real, then he was either A, powerless to help me because my life was suffering, or B, he didn't love me enough to get involved. So either way, I wanted nothing to do with him. And this guy absorbed my anger and he prayed for me and he spoke the end from the beginning. I remember many nights he would just follow me and my band, and he would we would be doing some stupid, stupid things, and he would just love on us and love on us, and he'd say, Brad, God has a plan for you, God is gonna use you to change the lives of people, God has a wife for you, God has you know, and he would just love on me and love on me and love on me. And um ultimately after praying for me and loving on me, I ended up opening myself up to going to church. And uh I hated worship music because it just felt like it was empty, it didn't have a soul, and I came from the 90s where I was like, Nirvana was my favorite band, all this. And I'm like, man, I uh one night I had a dream, and God gave me a dream, and he showed up in this dream, and I saw I was in this band, it was a really destructive band, like an antichrist band. And um he showed me in this dream. I woke up in the bed that I was sleeping in, and I started to levitate off this bed, and I was being drawn towards this window in this room. And as I was drawn towards this window in this room, it burst into flames. And I um it's all very personal. I didn't expect to say this on the podcast. But as I was it burst into flames, and as I was being drawn to it like a magnet, I started to feel just heat and regret and anguish. And like the closer I would get to this window, I would see almost like a movie reel of my life, and I would see all the songs that I dedicated to Jesus and my anger and just all the things I would say that were so blasphemous and so hate filled, and all the things going on in my soul that I was like venting towards God. But in reality, like I would think I was mad at my dad, you know, for leaving me, for abandoning us and for making our life a living hell for so long. But um I in the this dream, I scream out, I cry out, I said, I don't want to die, I want to live. And I woke up. And as I woke up, God spoke to me audibly for the only time in my life. Like uh, he said something very personal to me that I probably won't share here. But um, he spoke to me audibly, and I went to I I didn't sleep the whole night, woke up. Obviously, I felt like I was like charged with electricity. I go to our band and I knew nothing. I I mean I knew one Christian guy who this guy, I knew that he walked with someone that was very powerful, but I still wasn't even sure exactly where I was at with all this. I went to our band, I said, guys, I gotta tell you something. I said, uh, God spoke to me in a dream last night, and they just started like mocking me and laughing. They're like, shut up, you're crazy. And I was like, no, for real, like God showed up in my dream because none of our band was Christian. And I said, No, God showed up in a dream, and he told me to change a few things, so I have to make some changes. And I stepped out in faith, and that was really the beginning of the signs, like where it was God was shifting me, you know. And there's there's a lot, there's a lot more, but that's how I my old life it's in the ashes of those encounters.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

That is that is such a radical, extreme testimony, and just so beautiful. To be honest with you, tears were starting to get worked up, and I've heard your story before. It's just so real and so powerful, and nobody can argue with you about your encounter with God. It literally changed your life and definitely makes sense why you are the way that you are today. We're taking a break from the conversation for an OceanhouseMusic.com distribution 30 seconds spotlights. This week's spotlight is on a song titled Psalm 103 by Kingdom Revival. Here's a little taste.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

My whole heart I will praise his holy name. Heals all my diseases.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

I have a question for you, Pastor. You know, when I came to the Lord, or when I returned to the Lord, I mean, I knew the Lord as a child, uh, I returned to him later in life. But looking back, I can feel that God was drawing me even years before I surrendered to him. And the Bible tells us in John 6.44 that we can only go to God because he draws us unto himself. So for you, looking back at that time, as much as you did not believe in God, as shocked as you were with that encounter, can you see that God was drawing you for a period of time before all of that?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can see those things. I I uh I believe my grandma, when I went to live with my grandma, I believe that season was really important. She would uh sit at the dinner table with me. And it was like my first uh my first exposure to like a normal life, like the life that a normal kid would have. I we lived in probably 16, 17 different apartments, just moving constantly. My dad would go to prison, we'd have to move, we'd get evicted. Then you get like uh the welfare check to get you into the new apartment, low-income housing, and then my mom would get back on drugs, and then we wouldn't pay rent, we'd get kicked out, have to go to the next place and go to the next place. And like my life was just I had no roots, I had no family, I had no foundation. Home, home for me was very dangerous, it wasn't good. Um, being raised where I was raised. But so, like when my parents went to jail, I went to live with my grandma. My grandma is a Baptist prayer warrior.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Wow, come on.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

And this lady, I mean, she would cook me food, and it was just like just home comfort type love, you know, where she would cook me food and she talked to me about my life, and she would, she wouldn't judge me and she was just kind. But then when I would sleep, she would come in from her mouth, she says, I would come when you would fall asleep into your room at night, and I put my hand on your head and I'd say, God, his story has been so sad. Would you set this boy apart and do something with him? And she prayed for me. I lived with her for almost two years. And she said, at nights, I mean, often she would come in and put her hand on my head and pray that God would set me apart and do something special with my life. I believe, like seeing some of this, like obviously, I see the Christian people that tried to reach me and and and they tried and they they were doing a good job. And like I was just so angry. I was so angry and so um anti any of it because my my soul was broken, you know, and I was so disappointed. And I just felt like like life for me was was pain when you have, you know, all I wanted. I remember when I was young, I remember just crying out to God as a junior hire, and like I didn't believe. I'm like, if you're real, would you come and just give me a normal life? You know, um, when you're my my childhood, like most of my, you know, twice a month, I'm in I'm going to visit my dad in prison, going to Soledad, Folsom, Men's Colony, like all these places, and like that was my life. And then I go home and my mom's on drugs, and it was just like so, so broken and so chaotic. Like I see his hand, but honestly, like the soil that all the stuff that's come into my life now that was built on, it was really built in brokenness and weakness and isolation and like orphan. I was like an orphan almost.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Our time together today is coming close to an end. Let's go here, Pastor Brad. There's someone listening that once felt closer to the Lord and was attending church, and you're a pastor, so this is a really great question to ask you. And this is for someone that was really hurt by someone acting in the name of the Lord, a self-proclaimed man or woman of God. I know for myself, when I when I came to the Lord, I viewed God very much like my earthly father. My my father was extremely angry, often, and mean. So when I would mess up as a new believer, I would literally beg God not to hurt me because I thought he wanted to hurt me like my dad. And there's someone listening, I'm sure there's someone listening that can relate to this. But as I've gotten to know God more and I've I've walked with him through the years, I've realized that God is not like that at all. He doesn't want to hurt us. In fact, God wants to do the opposite, he wants to save us. That's why he sent Jesus. I mean, the Bible shows us that God is love. He doesn't operate in love or or have love. He is the epitome of love, he is a definition of love. God is love, shows us in 1 John 4.8, in 1 John 4.11. And even when God was revealing himself to Moses in Exodus 34, he shows that he's compassionate, he's gracious, he's slow to anger, he's abounding in love and faithfulness. And I realize God is not like my earthly father at all. Now, all that to say, someone listening right now is having trouble separating the character of God from the character of the person that hurt them. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah, I think I mean, number one, your pain is real.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Being hurt by people is really, really hard. And honestly, like when you've been wounded, it's really hard to see beyond your wounds sometimes. It's like you, you know, you see everything through a lens of your pain. And so the the hurt is real. So number one, number two, um, Jesus is nothing like the Jesus isn't trying to hurt you, he's trying to help you, he's trying to save you, he loves you, he's trying to redeem you, he's trying to resurrect you, he's trying to plant uh good seed in you to produce good fruit in you. This he's so much different than we could imagine. And his intention for us is not to harm us, but to produce good. He wants to redeem all of this. So number one, it's really hard for you. I think it's hard for us. Let me say it this way. It's hard for us to just, I guess, discern who God is and his nature if we don't actually study our Bibles. You know, and I think that seeing who Jesus is in the scriptures, like you look at this, you look at even the disciples that believe um, you remember when they said, uh, do you want us to call fire down from heaven and consume our enemies? And Jesus says, Stop. Don't you know what spirit you're of? The Son of Man didn't come to destroy life, he came to save life. You know, and he wants to um, I mean, he he doesn't, it's not that he wants to display something different, he is something different. So it's like he doesn't, it's not like he's trying to do anything, it's just who he is. So when you have a real encounter with Jesus, it doesn't take away the pain. So the first thing I said is like the pain's real. Second thing is, so is Jesus. You know, and he heals the sick, he heals our souls, he heals our mind, he heals our broken story. And so for me, like, how do you get beyond it? It's like, number one, forgiveness. You have to forgive. And I know that's hard to say, and you're like, but Brad, maybe this person really hurt me. Maybe it's like a sexual abuse thing, or maybe it's like religious power abuse, or it's like betrayal, or maybe you've uh, you know, God spoke to you about a relationship and now you're in a divorce and you're in custody battles or whatever, and it's just the pain of seeing your kids cry at night because a man of God walked backslid and and left you, or whatever, and now you're dealing with the the damage of all the decisions that they've made. I don't know what it is, I don't know what the pain is. The pain is totally real. Uh, I'll just tell you suffering. Uh, when you suffer with him, he comes in and he takes the suffering upon himself with you. And so he comes in and he carries a cross and he says, I'm gonna take your suffering upon me, and I'm gonna climb to Calvary, and I'm gonna raise it up. And if you'll give this to me, I will absorb it upon myself. Forgive. The pain's real. So is Jesus. He's a healer, so forgive and don't worry about the reconciliation. Let him reconcile all things to himself.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

That's all the time that we have today with Pastor Brad from Two Trees Church in Ventura. You can find out more information about Two Trees Church on Instagram under Two Trees Church. And Pastor Brad is also on Instagram under Bradley Lawson. I want to give you an opportunity right now to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior if you don't already. Or maybe you once knew him, he walked away. But you want to just rededicate it all back to him and just give him his rightful place on the throne in your life. If that's you, if either of those are you, let's pray together right now. Heavenly Father, I know that I am a sinner in need of a savior. Thank you for sending Jesus to be that savior. Thank you that Jesus died and he was buried and he rose again three days later and is now alive. I make a choice today to turn off that path away from you and to turn and to follow you as my Lord. Jesus, come be my Lord. Help me to live for you and fill me with your Holy Spirit. In your name, Jesus, we pray. Amen and amen. If you just prayed that with me, we want to hear from you. Email us at dreamtheconversation at gmail.com. And thank you again for tuning in today. Maybe you're listening over radio on K Wave1110, or maybe you're listening over podcast. Oh, and don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. You can find the conversation with Roxanne Grace pretty much anywhere you stream podcasts, including iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and again anywhere you stream your podcast. I'm Roxanne. Until next week, stay blessed in him.